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  • KSA Grading Crossover Questions

    Looking for some expertise here on a scenario. Let's say I have a card graded by KSA, and I would like to "Crossover" to comparable PSA and SGC grades and prices.

    So let's say the card is a KSA 9 (or 8, or 7, doesn't matter for the scenario). I find based on other conversations here and elsewhere, collectors generally accept that PSA will be (in general) 2 grades lower. Furthermore, most believe SGC may be a half point less stringent than PSA. Therefore, the KSA 9 in my example would be a PSA 7, and perhaps an SGC 7.5.

    Let's then say I send the slabbed card into PSA, using their "Crossover Service". And furthermore, for kicks, I ask for a minimum PSA grade back of 7.5 (I'm getting a touch greedy, but what the heck).

    What I am wondering is people's experiences to answer the following questions:

    1. If anyone has done anything like this, were they, in their actual experience, getting two grades difference from a KSA submission (as has been speculated on this forum)?
    2. Do you find that KSA will grade cards that the other companies won't? For example, I believe I've heard that KSA will grade cards from vending that may be a touch smaller than cards pulled from packs, but PSA will reject them.
    3. How high is the possibility of having / buying a KSA graded card, then NEVER getting a crossover because of the Minimum Size Requirement (which I've gotten from my cards from the 1960's and 70's that I pulled from packs)?

    Any experiences anyone wants to share here would be appreciated.


  • #2
    For my personal experience, I've sent about a dozen KSA cards slabed with a minimum requirement of 1 or 1.5 grade lower and never got a single one returned graded by PSA.

    On the other end, I've craked many KSA to send them raw to PSA and got good results about 75% of the time. I even got a PSA8 on a KSA 8 Park 1953, not bad. But most of the time I got 1.5 or 2 grades lower. I also got 2 cards returned as trimmed and 2 as recolored.

    All the cards I sent were pre 1967, so I never had a problem with minimum size and vending, but I've seen many frustrated dealers and collectors with this issue

    My advise: 1- judge the card not only grade, especially is you plan to crossover. 2- Only buy KSA graded when you can see the card live 3- Don't forget about the qualifiers, PSA pay more attention to off center, miscut, printing defect... than KSA. 4- The bigger value and low pop cards are higher risk than commons for crossover. 5- If a KSA card is solid and justifies the grade and you are confident about it, it's probably better to send it raw than in a KSA holder.



    • #3
      I agree with Fred on all aspects....Send card in raw (hopefully not damaging it when removing). KSA is all over the map on grades although in my recent experience so is PSA. I had raw cards that I thought were a 7 grade a 8 or higher and a card I had pegged at a 9oc grade a 6???

      Also grade the card yourself...if you are a long time collector you can basically determine grade of card yourself within a 1/2 point. One thing that is hard to see on encapsulated cards is factory surface blemishes that PSA will pick up.

      One thing I will add is that undersized cards has nothing to do with being sheet cut. It has more to do with vending. A sheet cut card is going to measure up almost every time. It is in the edges and the appearance of the knife cuts

      PSA minszreq is also all over the map. Should be cut and dry if you have a ruler! See my post on 68-69 OPC for more details.


      • #4
        I haven't ever sent a KSA card in to cross over, but I did send some SGC cards. They did very well overall, but a couple of them got rejected 2-3 times so I gave up.

        I normally avoid KSA cards, but it seems like a good idea to remove the card from the holder. KSA has a bad reputation and I doubt if PSA will ever cross one of their cards at a comparable grade. They will always ding it and drop it 2 grades just on principle!


        • HowieMorenz7
          HowieMorenz7 commented
          Editing a comment
          what do you mean the SGC were rejected?

      • #5
        Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I had a couple of 1962 Topps cards that were graded SGC 96, which is a 9. I have a PSA set on the Registry and wanted these cards as upgrades in a PSA 9 holder. I submitted them 2-3 times with a minimum grade of PSA 9, but they always came back in the same holder. PSA doesn't tell you why something won't cross over at a certain grade, so I eventually gave up and sold them on eBay in the SGC holder. I wasn't brave enough to crack them out of the SGC holder and have PSA give them an 8, which would have brought down their value, so I sold them.


        • #6
          I STRONGLY disagree that all KSA graded cards will be graded 2 points lower by PSA. If that was true, heck, I'd buy like a hundred PSA 5 graded cards and send them all in to KSA (so they can all come back KSA 7). Wouldn't that be an AWESOME way to make money? But it's not that simple. Sure, a few might get a 7, some will get a 6, others will remain a 5, and believe it or not, some might even get REJECTED due to various reasons (I've had it happen to me just once!) I agree with Billyberu that KSA's grading is not consistent and this is why we as collectors must judge the card and not the label.


          • #7

            Let me start by saying that i would never discourage anyone with an interest in collecting vintage hockey from posting any question or participating in any thread on this forum. We all started somewhere with zero knowledge, there are many long time collectors on the site as well as people that are fairly new to this and we're all here to help each other learn and grow our collections.

            Originally posted by Puck_That View Post
            I STRONGLY disagree that all KSA graded cards will be graded 2 points lower by PSA. If that was true, heck, I'd buy like a hundred PSA 5 graded cards and send them all in to KSA (so they can all come back KSA 7). Wouldn't that be an AWESOME way to make money?

            This post, like many of your posts, shows your lack of experience. If you handled enough cards you would not be STRONGLY stating anything about Ksa. Maybe you should take a second to think about why all of these collectors disagree and why there is not one dealer on the planet that uses ksa as a first choice.

            You constantly bring up money, I think that shows that you are almost scared to buy cards unless you think there is some kind of financial upside to it. If this is your thinking there's a strong possibility that you will not be doing this for long. It's great when something you own goes up in value, but that's not why we're here.

            "I agree with Billyberu that KSA's grading is not consistent and this is why we as collectors must judge the card and not the label."

            The only way to judge a card is in person, I have bought a handful of cards in ksa holders but only at shows, I would never buy a ksa card online. It is not that easy to see flaws in a scan, especially from sellers that consistently post poor scans. Most sales are online these days so if you really can't be sure what you're getting when you make an online purchase, why bother? Psa was a fairly small time operation before the internet became the preferred buying and selling tool.
            Quite a few grading companies have come and gone in the last 20 years. One is dominating the marketplace, Psa. When a company takes such a huge share of a market, there's a reason, and it usually revolves around consumer trust.
            So if the internet made psa into what they are today, what is going to become of a grading company that is shunned by online buyers? Hmm.


            • #8
              I've had a similar experience with cards ending up about 2 grades lower when going from KSA to PSA. Also had a couple of higher grade 51's rejected as trimmed. In all cases, the cards were cracked before submitting.

              I would say in particular that PSA is tougher on stains/discoloration.

              Will be sending 20+ formerly BVG cards to PSA, so we'll see how that compares.

              Finally, the market largely assumes that KSA cards will not cross - KSA 10 Lemieux RC's go for 500 while PSA 10's go for 10K. Likewise, I don't expect that KSA 7's sell for more than PSA 5's.
              Last edited by Anish; 08-29-2015, 08:16 PM.


              • #9
                Alright Jim, you want me to back up my talk? You got it, buddy.

                Here is my recently graded KSA 5 Shore:



                Now here is a PSA 3 Apps card that I found on eBay:



                This Apps card has a horizontal crease on the back which is an indication that it has been "popped out" before. It also has another crease above his head on the back. My Shore doesn't have any creases and has never been popped out before. This Apps card has weaker corners than my Shore too. And finally, this Apps card has toning issues as well while my Shore doesn't.

                Now Jim, are you saying that my Shore belongs in the same category as this Apps card? Because according to your belief, a KSA 5 equals a PSA 3, correct?

                I'm waiting for your response ...
                Last edited by Puck_That; 09-09-2015, 09:08 PM.


                • #10
                  I'm pretty much done trying to be nice to you.
                  You're waiting for my response? You're a numbnut. That's my response.

                  You post a card that looks like a 3 which graded a 3?! Wow. You have a card that ksa only over graded by one grade(if the top and bottom aren't trimmed). Good for you sparky. Still don't get your point and don't really care.

                  You don't get it and don't think you ever will or want to.


                  • #11
                    Hey Puck That,

                    First, two beautiful cards. Thanks for sharing.

                    Second, that's not a crease on the Apps - it's a perforation (the line along which the card was MEANT to be folded). You can see that type of line on the highest grade copies.

                    Third, looks like there's some staining on the back of the Shore. Like I said, PSA would hit you hard for that. I don't have a stained card in higher than PSA 2.

                    Just my thoughts
                    Last edited by Anish; 08-29-2015, 10:41 PM.


                  • #12
                    Puck That,

                    Not to pile on here...but...

                    No one said KSA is always exactly 2 grades higher than PSA...only that KSA typically overgrades by about 2 grades compared to PSA.

                    Of course given KSA cannot grade higher than a 10, it is possible a KSA 10 could cross over if it was a high end KSA 10. It's not like KSA can give what PSA would consider a 10 a KSA 12 or something. But in general, KSA is both inconsistent and overly generous.

                    In terms of people buying PSA 5s and sending them in for KSA 7s to make money, my guess is most PSA 5 would come back around that 7 level, give or take. But here's the problem: you can usually get more for a PSA 5 than for a KSA 7. People shy away from KSA, which reduces demand and potential buyers. And those that will buy from KSA won't pay the same price point as they would for a PSA card of the same grade.

                    Of course there are specific examples of KSA cards that are graded appropriately, or maybe even conservatively. Cherry picking examples isn't going to change hearts and minds (especially when a scan posted on the internet of an encapsulated card doesn't establish anything - there could be huge problems that cannot be see in the scan or to the naked eye in a case without a light and microscope).

                    Don't take this as me trying to highlight the benefits of PSA or any grading company. They are *all* wildly inconsistent in my opinion. But in my opinion, PSA seems the most consistent and appropriate, followed by BVG, then SGC, followed by my 6 year old niece with vision impairment, followed by KSA.

                    Good to see some spice on this forum after a few quiet days hehe


                    • Puck_That
                      Puck_That commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Quiet for a few days? Only a few days? This forum is almost as DEAD as my grandmother!

                  • #13
                    You don't get my point? Scroll up and read what I wrote:

                    <<I STRONGLY disagree that all KSA graded cards will be graded 2 points lower by PSA>>

                    I have posted the above scans to back up my statement. In other words, I did this to prove that not all KSA 5s = PSA 3s. I could post many more pictures to keep proving my point, but I don't have the patience to keep doing this.

                    By the way, I think it is really unprofessional that you have to resort to name calling. Numbnut? Sparky? Are you calling me a dog? Wow, really classy, Jim. This is definitely not the same person I met a few weeks earlier who was extremely kind to me and bought me a coffee.

                    Anyways, I am done posting on KSA threads. I am here to have fun and not put up with this BS.


                    • #14
                      I agree with ---KRAPPY SPORTSCARD ASSESSORS


                      • #15
                        I'll bet that I'm not the first person you've frustrated.

                        "Quiet for a few days? Only a few days? This forum is almost as DEAD as my grandmother!'

                        If this is too slow paced for you there's probably a bunch of other sites you can visit to tap into a wealth of knowledge from vintage hockey collectors.