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  • Definition of trimming?

    Here are two pictures from the same card. How much shorter than the real size can a card be cut before it is considered trimmed by PSA?

    1951 Parkhurst McCleod: Click image for larger version

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  • #2
    How about this one:
    How many print spots do we need on a grade 9 card in order to be considered Print Defect (PD) Click image for larger version

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    1953 Parkhurst Stoddard:

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    • #3
      You mean all psa 9 cards are not the same ? Is it possible there are altered or fake cards in psa holders?

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      • #4
        I am looking at the photos on my phone so cant tell if anything is trimmed. I will say that just because a card is smaller, doesn't mean its trimmed and just because it appears over sized, doesnt mean its not trimmed.

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      • #5
        Cuts were not uniform, especially prevalent in some issues like 1954 Parkhurst (which is inapplicable here). So the two 1951 Parkies may well both be untrimmed and unaltered though radically different sizes. The printing dot issue is another matter. I wouldn't think a 9 sans qualifier was appropriate for a card with PDs all over it like the one shown. Just my two cents.

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        • #6
          Originally posted by wardzaharia View Post
          You mean all psa 9 cards are not the same ? Is it possible there are altered or fake cards in psa holders?
          Ask my buddy Honus Wagner and he will tell you the answer!

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          • #7
            IHMO, I would say if the card is smaller than it is regular size, it is trimmed. Otherwise, it would be miscut.

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            • rocket9richard
              rocket9richard commented
              Editing a comment
              I Don't agree, if a card is in it's original untouched condition, then it's fine and can't be qualified as trimmed because it's not trimmed!.Not every year and issue has very precise size.1951Park sheets were cut by hand with a guillotine trimmer causing small size variations.
              For a card to be qualified as trimmed, it needs to be trimmed!

          • #8
            Just my opinion:

            1- For the Park 1951 the left card seems standard and the right card looks a little bit oversize to me. Those were not all exact equal size. In most case if a card is trimmed, there is evidence of trimming when looked at with appropriate Tools. If there is no evidence of trimming and the card is of acceptable standard, then it's not trimmed. I Don't think any of these 2 is trimmed. Talking about printing defect, Don't you think the left one has an issue with the white dots in the black background?

            2- For the Park 1953, again it is not evident that one card is below the standard size. It would need to be looked at closely to answer that. What concerns me more is the strong possibility that the right card was washed causing the faded colors This is a common way to improve cards that has no qualifier and is still an alteration or human modification just like removing glue on the back.

            This is a delicate and subjective topic, but the higher the grade and card value, the higher the impact...
            Last edited by rocket9richard; 04-13-2019, 03:51 PM.

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            • GillesRen
              GillesRen commented
              Editing a comment
              ''Don't you think the left one has an issue with the white dots in the black background''
              I guess you meant the right one. I have seen many grade 8 with less obvious printing defects being qualified has PD.
              In my opinion, it should have been rated PD for obvious reasons.

            • rocket9richard
              rocket9richard commented
              Editing a comment
              Yes the right one sorry

          • #9
            Originally posted by GillesRen View Post
            Here are two pictures from the same card. How much shorter than the real size can a card be cut before it is considered trimmed by PSA?

            1951 Parkhurst McCleod: Attachment
            L card is shorter. R card is narrower.
            As noted, these cards were hand cut with a standard guillotine cutter. Slight size variations are prevalent.
            PSA screws up occasionally, but unless you personally handle scores of these cards in high grade raw condition I would lean towards usually trusting their judgement.

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            • #10
              Thank you all for your input. I keep in mind the 1951 Parkhurst can be smaller in size by 1 mm or even more without being qualified has smallsizeq or trimmed.
              Someone having the right tools to trim a card from that year would have good flexibility to reduce the size in order to enhance the sharpness of the corners and edges.

              As for the 1953 Parkhurst, literally strafed with red dots, the PD qualifier is a roll of the dice with the examiner, even for a grade 9!.


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              • #11
                As anybody seen or used one of these before? I've had them for about 25 years and never saw others.

                You get the size of all hockey cards 1910-1993 and all baseball card 1914-1993. There is a legend on the back with sizes in inches.

                Click image for larger version

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                Last edited by rocket9richard; 04-14-2019, 09:32 AM.

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                • GillesRen
                  GillesRen commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Never seen before. NIce!!!

              • #12
                Ha. I remember those

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                • #13
                  I distinctly remember opening 1970-71 packs as a kid, and pulling out over time 3 different sized Tom Webster (OPC) cards. I remember putting them in my hand and noticing three different sized cards, top to bottom. As I rarely seem to sell anything, there is a good chance I still have all three somewhere.

                  I also have a beautiful pack pulled Orr card from 1969-70 OPC that was part of my first (and only) attempt at grading. It came back "Min Size".

                  I know for a fact all my cards in that vintage were pulled from a pack by me.

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                  • #14
                    I have submitted some 1969 OPC cards in the past that I thought were going to grade PSA 9, but they came back ungraded: Min Size. This is a card that is slightly smaller than a standard card, but hasn't been trimmed. It came from the factory that way. It was really disappointing that these cards were in NrMInt+ condition and hadn't been trimmed, but wouldn't be graded by PSA.

                    I wonder if the 51 Parkie on the left is just smaller because it came from the factory that way. In all reality, the card on the left looks fine and the one on the right looks a little oversized.

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                    • harpervalley7
                      harpervalley7 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      To me this is sad, real sad, that PSA takes this approach.Just another reason not to send your cards in to get graded as far as I’m concerned.Anybody that’s been in the hobby a reasonable amount of time knows it’s common knowledge that Topps and OPC back in them days produced cards born in the factory that were cut different sizes ,ragged edges.and so on so to cop out and not grade is pathetic and they should do so because they are out of the factory that way and PSA is in the business of grading so do your jobs and grade them perhaps with a notation on the label that they are not standard size but factory born!!! And OK !!!!

                  • #15
                    Cards can be factory short or oversized on both length and width. In my experience if a card is inside 1/16" short on regular cards and does not have evidence of trimming (which can be recognized by grader) it will grade. If it is oversized it will still grade as long as they can fit it in the holder.

                    1951's and 52's undersize limits may be just a factor of that 1/16" I mention on regular cards. Probably more in line with 1/32"?

                    Now if a card is too far outside these limits for length/width PSA will send it back (Min-Size) and will not charge you.

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